An offer of AV

[ajva]

I think the LibDems should go for it. It's not PR, but it's a slight improvement, and a hell of a concession from the Tories. And what's more, if the LibDems turn it down, they'll be seen as putting their party interest first and possibly be punished for that later on.

What do you think?

Comments

[ajva.livejournal.com]

Yes, indeed. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, though. Nick knows he won't get STV out of this, so surely the only reason he'd take that position would be if he thought a deal was impossible anyway, for whatever reason. But then again, even if that were the case, would he really want to risk being seen as the deal-breaker? After all, if STV is the long-term goal, surely it's in the LibDems' interests to show that coalition government can work?

[lovingboth]

Sod any referendums, I would want an actual Government-whipped bill. The alternative is to have a referendum where most of the Government is actively campaigning for a 'no' vote.

[ajva.livejournal.com]

Then we have to campaign for a "yes" vote, yes? And if the British public still votes "no", then that's their choice. It's a big thing; we can't fairly foist it on people - we have to make a good case for it. Which shouldn't be completely impossible, I wouldn't have thought. Particularly because it would be a slight (only slight, mind, I know) move towards keeping the Tories out of majority government.

[lovingboth]

Far bigger things have been done without a referendum. Masstricht, for a start.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

But Maastricht got referendums (referenda??) in other countries in Europe (I was in Denmark when the famous 'no' vote came in), and there was a lot of anger in the UK about us not being offered a referendum.

[lovingboth]

I was actually thinking of Thatcher (!) signing up to the Single European Act - "one of the largest transfers of power from a member state to the European Community" through extension of qualified majority voting in Europe, i.e. giving up the UK's power of veto - without bothering to have a referendum. (Again, the Danes and Irish had one.)

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

Ah, OK.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

I think a referendum's fair. If the populace don't want electoral reform, I don't think it should be forced on them. But there'd need to be a LOT of public consultation.

[lovingboth]

I am less democratic. Lots of changes get passed without a referendum. Where was the referendum on ending (nearly all) hereditary peers in the Lords, for example? Or introducing non-FPTP votes in Northern Ireland Euro elections decades ago and Euro elections for the rest more recently?

[emarkienna.livejournal.com]

Indeed - similarly the choice to use PR systems for the London Assembly and Scottish Parliament. Or even things like changing the constituency boundaries.

(AV+ is also arguably much closer to what we have now than multiple member region systems - although I guess at the moment, it looks like any referendum will be for the latter, given that Lib Dems support STV.)

Having said that, I think that Labour offer a good deal - a bill for AV, and PR with a referendum.

[ajva.livejournal.com]

Labour do offer an excellent deal, but that's partly because they can't be certain of delivering it.

[djm4]

I think they can be pretty certain of not delivering it. It only takes a couple of other Labour MPs willing to follow Tom Harris (and there will be plenty), and it's dead.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

The word “progressive” has now been redefined as “willing to barter away everything you campaigned for in return for the chance to be in government, albeit at the beck and call of a party that has spent its entire existence trying to wipe you off the political map”. Who knew?

LOL. OK, I officially love Tom Harris today. And frankly, his objections are good ones, though I disagree with his view that "this would happen every election under PR".

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

*shrug*

Up to you. But Euro elections are a different matter, and almost nobody in the country thought hereditary peerages were a good thing. I think it'd be extremely unpopular to introduce such sweeping constitutional reform without a referendum, and if it were done by a coalition government which hadn't even succeeded in an election, well, I suspect that'd look worryingly undemocratic, and could perpetuate the feeling of frustrated rage a hell of a lot of people already feel about the last Labour government.