Huzzah for a native speaker

[ajva]

Italian lesson perked me up. It was a really good one; I could feel the "kick" start to happen - the one where you can feel it all start to flow (resident linguists will know what I mean, and I'm sure everybody else can imagine it). Claudio seems quite pleased with the way things are going and is dropping in little extra bits here and there. He's an excellent teacher.

One interesting thing that is emerging from these lessons that hasn't from any teach-yourself course I've done is that the dialects in Italy are very distinct. I suppose this is not surprising given Italy's history as, basically, a federation of principalities, but the subtleties of it are quite interesting. It also affects some words.

The first person of the verb "fare" (to do/make - you know - faire in French) has different forms depending on where you are. The verb was apparently originally faccere and conjugated like a 2nd conjugation -ere verb, whereas now it is partly conjugated like a 1st conjugation -are verb. Consequently, many people in the north use "fo" to mean "I do", whereas strictly speaking the standard Italian form is "faccio". Claudio commented that if he used the form "faccio" to his parents they would think he was being posh, and so he tends to use "fo". I can use either, of course, although as a foreigner I'm going to stick to "faccio" atm. :o) Still, these are exactly the sort of things I need to be aware of if I'm to make out anything of what people say when I eventually visit Italy.

Comments

Re: can be confusing

[ajva.livejournal.com]

This happens to me too - however, I think the similarity or otherwise of the languages affects the chances of your brain getting muddled. I've never found myself actually muddling German with French, for example, because the way I hold my mouth is different for each language. However when I learned a bit of Dutch, the soft "g"s took some getting used to. In Dutch, the past participle is formed in exactly the same way as in German - you add a "ge" at the beginning. The past participle of the verb "schrijven" (to write) is "geschreven" (irregular), but you pronounce the "g" not as a plosive but as a voiced fricative in the back of the throat. But in general the way you hold your mouth for Dutch is quite similar to the way you hold it for German, so this takes a bit of careful practice.

pedantic

[ajva.livejournal.com]

er...should read "unvoiced fricative".

This has been a Public Pedantry Announcement.

Re: pedantic

[sanjibabes.livejournal.com]

I never noticed. Oops. Technical linguistics has never been my strong point, I just copy until I get the sound correct.

I am soooo undisciplined.

Re: pedantic

[ajva.livejournal.com]

I just copy until I get the sound correct.

Best way. Only way, I'd say.

NB I'm not trying to show off my big cock vocabulary or anything - just couldn't think of any other way to describe the sound. ;o)

Re: pedantic

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've tried to pronounce an unvoiced velar fricative before. Sounds weird. Or should it be palatial?

Re: pedantic

[ajva.livejournal.com]

Or should it be palatial?

Only if you've got a *really* big mouth. :oP

but seriously...

[ajva.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I'm not sure exactly which one of the many many unvoiced fricative blah blahs it would be. I think the unvoiced velar fricative is what you would call the "ch" in German ich, and the Dutch "g" is harder than that, but still not voiced. It is pronounced further back in the throat.

Re: but seriously...

[sanjibabes.livejournal.com]

Like a gulp sound?
(not that i can remember any of my linguistics)

Re: but seriously...

[ajva.livejournal.com]

Well, no, not a gulp. Breath is pushed out, like in the German "ch". Of course, that "ch" sound seems to be one of the most variable things in German regional accents, so technically that's not much help I suppose. Nevertheless, I don't think I've ever heard a German pronounce "ch" like the Dutch "g". One point about this is that "ch" doesn't tend to come at the beginning of words in German, whereas the "g" appears a lot at the beginning of Dutch words.

Re: but seriously...

[sanjibabes.livejournal.com]

never done Dutch before. Sounds like a fairly simple sound. I have trouble with sounds that rely heavily on my tongue, like the rrrrr in Spanish.